Quota any day, to keep the doctor away
What happened in Mumbai is a crying shame. Beating up life-saving doctors with whole world watching sends the wrong signal to the world. What were the Mumbai cops thinking? That they could hammer doctors into submission? Almost every medico-legal case requires the attestation of a government doctor. I have heard of stories about how an intern made an ASP wait for four hours just because the cop tried to bully the intern. Suicide, drunken driving, murder... Just about every freaking case requires the doctor's signature; the cops can't work without the docs. Now that they have lathi charged peaceful protesters as the shocked nation watched, the cops can expect the shit to hit the fan when they go stand outside the doctor's office for a signature. I assure you that the Mumbai cops are going to suffer for a long time to come. Just WTF were they thinking? Mumbai cops have made life difficult for every cop in the country. Amid all this chaos, CNN-IBN pops the question 'right to dignity' or 'right to life.' You have the right to shut the hell up Rajdeep. I am amazed at how you can plumb to such depths just to get some more eye balls and a little boost to your channel's ratings. If you are so worried about your life, you ought to ensure that the life-saving doctors are treated with respect that they so deserve. And, stop creating quota doctors. What the news channels are missing is this big point: where the f**k do you stop the quota? I can live with reservations at school and college level but at the PG or doctorate level?
Update:The Prime minister has set up a committee to look into the quota turmoil. And guess who is in it? The Superman Arjun Singh himself!
And, check this out:
I implore the doctors to get the f**k out of this place. If you can't make it to USA or UK. Don't worry, the middle-east is a great place, at least to make some real good money. My friend Vasu will not miss you, after all each one of you, according to him, is an 'RDB' type and you are a rich ass punk with two cars. Could someone introduce him to reality, he's never been acquainted with it. WHY? Why don't these pro-quota people see it: it is like cutting the branch you are sitting on! As David Ogilvy would have put it, we are all set to become a country of dwarfs. Let me clarify one more time before Vasu pounces on me foaming at his mouth. I am not against reservations. But I am against reservations at the PG level, in important domains like public health care, and I am against unreasonable quota systems (the numbers I mean like 69%) that encourage brain-drain. We wronged the backward classes in the past but two wrongs do not make it right. Arjun Singh is doing it to further his political motives. He does not give a toad's ass about you, me, or the backward classes. Add to:del.icio.us| Digg| Reddit| StumbleUpon| Technorati
approximately 30-40 in AIIMS, PGI, JIPMER, 2000 in the All-India entrance and by some extrapolation about another 4000 seats in state medical colleges. A grand total of 6500, give or take. Number of medical graduates coming out every year? Easily around 30,000. Do the math - excluding the ones that go abroad (they can't get to the UK anymore, that's a different story), get married, do MBAs or medical transcription and the ones that get post grad, there's a pool of about 15,000 doctors ADDED to the ones that write the entrance exams.As this country dies a painful death, thanks to Arjun Singh, the docs are going to fly away from this meaningless system and you and I will end up with a quota doctor who can't tell the scalpel from the scalp. If Arjun Singh falls sick will he go consult a quota doc. Like hell he will. And oh if you were wondering why Arjun Singh won't talk or budge... Simple. The journalists leave the place before Singh opens his mouth. He takes forty hours to say 'Quo...' Anoher ten to finish it with 'ta'. He doesn't budge because he can't walk. I propose that even politicians should be asked to buzz off and retire as soon as they cross 60. I mean, what the heck... have you seen Vajpayee talk? Poor man, makes Prabu Deva look like an amateur; with all that shaking of the head and knees. Such is life. We are governed by leaders who consider standing up an achievement and they decide the fate of this country's youth.
And the government wants to halve the number of seats available on the general merit list. And it wants the section of society most affected by it to sit around quietly on their lathi-charged behinds. [via quietly Amused]
Update:The Prime minister has set up a committee to look into the quota turmoil. And guess who is in it? The Superman Arjun Singh himself!
And, check this out:
Five Hundred doctors in three government hospitals � Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital, Lady Hardinge Medical College and Safdarjung Hospital are likely to face termination of service.
200 senior resident doctors of AIIMS have been given termination notices.
Nearly 70 doctors have rejoined duty at Safdarjung Hospital, while 81 have resumed work at RML.[via NDTV]
I implore the doctors to get the f**k out of this place. If you can't make it to USA or UK. Don't worry, the middle-east is a great place, at least to make some real good money. My friend Vasu will not miss you, after all each one of you, according to him, is an 'RDB' type and you are a rich ass punk with two cars. Could someone introduce him to reality, he's never been acquainted with it. WHY? Why don't these pro-quota people see it: it is like cutting the branch you are sitting on! As David Ogilvy would have put it, we are all set to become a country of dwarfs. Let me clarify one more time before Vasu pounces on me foaming at his mouth. I am not against reservations. But I am against reservations at the PG level, in important domains like public health care, and I am against unreasonable quota systems (the numbers I mean like 69%) that encourage brain-drain. We wronged the backward classes in the past but two wrongs do not make it right. Arjun Singh is doing it to further his political motives. He does not give a toad's ass about you, me, or the backward classes. Add to:del.icio.us| Digg| Reddit| StumbleUpon| Technorati
17 Comments:
Hey suman,
Read your post and was surprised. Not surprised by the stand you take, but at the vehemence and defiance you show in taking that stance.
Unfortunately there are tens of millions of people who have been constantly and systmatically subjugated by civil society, beauracracy and individuals in the name of merit. These people who deify merit are themselves people of a higher caste. The whole system has been infiltrated and infested with higher caste beureucrats who frame rules and policies favouring higher class. This is what we often confuse as merit.
Thanks to the political system in india, the poor and the oppressed have some voice.
If you noticed all media channels were covering anti-reservation protests and even espousing their opinions about reservation.. Obviously the tam brahm network which is so strong inside the media is talking. Very very few people even talked about the other side of reservations.. those who benifit and serve their community.
IMHO India should have 69% reservation for the oppressed calsses and any one from a reserved catagory having enough grades to compete in general category should be promoted to the genral category paving way for more in the oppressed community to become a part of the mainstream.
We should not only have such reservation in school, UG and PG but also in PhD programms and even in private sector jobs.
Why not ?
I know you wont agree with me on this, but please spare the stick man. I can neither match your wit nor your vacablary... :D chill.. To that extent I am verbally challenged.
vasu
whenever you pull your head out of your butt, we'll talk.
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which is the youth, you are talking about ? The youth that goes to rich private schools, who can afford endless help through tutions, who has no worry about how his family is going to survive tomorrow ?
There are millions and millions who just dont go to shcool becuase they cant afford it. They cant get those high marks, your city bred tution injected uppercaste youth can..
We need them to get educated and earn money and lift their families out of poverty. We need not be bothered about those who already own 2 cars, those can get admission in private colleges in management quota.
If we neglect the oppressed, our own security would be threatened. Then there is no point looking at the sky and asking.. why ? why is there violence in this country ? Weather you like it or not most root cause for violence is extreme poverty and social suppression. The Rang de basanti crowd is just not bothered about those issues. All they are bothered about is, their own self interests and thats not good enough reason to remove quotas.
We need more quotas and bring more people under tha ambit of reservation all in our own self interests. Lest they might one day visit our homes with a naxal tag on their heads.
I find it supremely funny when you say with defiance that a doc in a GH can make a cop wait 4 hrs... jus because he can. Thats exactly the arrogance which we need to condemm.. What is that arrogance (being able to keep a cop waiting for a signature ?) Maybe in your world thats what is called merit ?
A cop knows that and he screws the rest of us in his own ways.. Take bribe for not possessing papers. Haress women when they file complaints
Coopt with rich politicians to bail out their kids in murder cases.
I sympathise with the plight of docs, but thats no better than the plight of other government employees.
RDB syndrome is good for movies machan. Real life changes cannot be achieved by threat.
vasu
I never said making a cop wait is right. I was highlighting the dependencies govt servants have. YOu seem to have developed a very cynical view of those that are fighting mindless quota. Are you trying to tell me that every general category student belongs to a rich family that has two cars. F**k man, did you take special coaching in logic? Plight of the govt employees!? The Mumbai BEST guys went on strike, no one bothered. When the docs go on strike, you sh*t your load and why? Because it is your ass. No matter how much stupid rhetoric you puke, unless you present data, logic, and reason, I am going to ignore your raving. So can you pull your head out of your ass and hit me with ONE reason built on logic, economics why we should go ahead with the OBC quota? By the way WTF do you know about the OBC quota?
So Vasu the terrible,
your solution as per your first post is to - let me get this straight - move intelligent people from backward classes to the general quota...
... and ensure that the reserved seats are filled with *only* DUMBASSES from the same classes?
I just hope one day you'll get to be treated by some such chap who made it the way you describe. He might remove your kidneys to treat a headache.
Whatever you're smoking man, I want some of it. Such reality distortion can't be achieved with any ordinary drug.
What ever this Suman kumar is? I quite really understand why India should ve a restriction on freedom of expression. If you guys think uttering the word F**K more times express your view better, its just pathetic enough understand how low you guys can stoop. And who is talking here about the reason, logic, statistics behind the reservations? Your language alone reflects the reason here. What do you guys think? I belong to upper caste. I am from a village. I have seen right infront of my eyes, since my childhood, what we did to those SCs and STs. Despite their suffering for generations, they are mainatining the composure. What are you guys doing? Shouting all the obscenities? You guys are talking as if all the docs from OBCs, SCs, STs are good for nothing. I'm a software engineer and a doctoral student in computational biology. Intellectual capability doesn't come by your caste. And its no one's sole right. I am neither against nor for for the reservations. Its a govt decision and mind you that this govt has been elected by us. I don't know if you guys have ever voted. If you guys want to uphold any better qualities as you believe the result of ur caste, do it in appropriate way. Not like this.
And who ever want the statistics, reason, logic behind the backward ness of OBCs, SCs, STs, I am willing to provide on any stage. But are you guys willing create such stage? Let me tell you, it will be a make or break. What can you offer in return. Do you guys have the guts or just obscene blabbering on the net. Not just that, I will prove with the names and contributions that have been made by non-upper caste indian doctors all over the world in many medical fields like cancer, diabetis, Alzeihmer's..what not. I will prove that with actual journal publications and their implications. May be one of ur family member or friend or relative already being benifited by their contributions. Shouting is something every one can do. There is no dearth of such fools in India. If you guys want to prove some thing, do it and prove it. Neither all the upper caste guys deserve the curses, not the lower caste guys. Culprits are on both the sides, only the numbers differ. Its a pity that average educated indian youth can't see this and get carried away.
Rajakumar
never mind.
please read this http://in.rediff.com/getahead/2006/apr/20rashmi.htm
I think the logic of governance is self evident. Government is the environment endowed with powers to create a society conducive for its citizens as it sees fit.
That this power needs to be in liue with some intellectual logic is a misunderstanding of the role of government. Merit therefore is no higher logic than saying that "xyz" needs that seat more than "abc".
You want logic. I will give you logic. Its the same logic one finds acceptable when a natural calmity like earthquake, drought, tsunami strikes our country. Its the same logic when an airplane crashes and people die. ITs the logic of compensation, amelioration of ones condition and lending a helping hand so that we can correct some of the past mistakes. Its about saying lets just not say no to caste, but remove the caste based inequalities in society by changing ground realities.
Ofcourse all our RDB Kids who are just eager to hold a candle donot have the historical perspective of what the brahmins did to the millions in the country. As late as the 90s. Lynching, segregation, economic deprevation. The list just goes on.
The whole caste war scenario is mroe real than we think it is. In places like bihar where oppression is the highest in the country, The dalits and OBCs have no way out except join the Naxals.
Naxalbari itself has become a more famous place than delhi or the much hyped bangalore. Over 30% of India is reeling under armed struggle supported by huge peasant masses who have no other choice. Either they take their share by force or die in the process.
Its a sad thing that at the end of the day killing someone seems to be the only door open for these people. All a result of a society which is highly apethetic to their plight and by a government which is swaying to english media sentiments.
I know the old trick Last to last anon (the one who is on drugs).. The trick of innuendos. When you cant or dont want to discuss an issue resort to personal innuendos. Doesent bother me in anyway, but clearly exposes both the total lack of understanding of indian social setup and a condescending disregard for those upon whom society constantly tramples on.
I think its time people picked up the book on constitution and started reading it word by word starting from "We the people".
I hope you know "We the people" is the first line of the constitution and not the name of an upperclass, burgeois t.v. show compered by a jumpy lady whom the middle class loves to watch.
Get real folks. Reservation is here to stay. If this government backs off, it will be a huge issue int he coming years.
Third front would come to power and one day the whole of India would have 70% reservation in every form of government institution.
With time reservations would really become irrelevant because 70% of the seats would anyway be filled by people of the oppressed classes. And Indian institutions would more accurately mirror India. Isnt it ironical that today they dont ?
Funny man Murthy is angry that govt. has increased the seats in IIM without his mentoring advice. And to think the IIMs have been planning to go abrooad rathar than create seats in India for the local demand, clearly exposes their agenda.
Now they would be forced to increase seats so that the upperclass brahmins can maintain his quota.
Its time we decide weather these institutions belong to the people of India or a few powerhungry industrialists.
vasu
Vasu, Rhetoric again. I have a simple question: Would the government offer quota for the fighter pilot's job in the air force, based on caste? No it won't. There are certain qualifications that a pilot requires. Like good eye sight, top notch physical fitness and decision making capabilities and so on... Now, tell me if it is okay to hire a pilot with faulty vision because he has quota? If you say yes. I have no other questions, I'll visit you soon in the asylum. If you say no or if you don't have an answer, let me transpose this situation: a doctor is a life saving professional, can you take any chances? Should we offer an MD seat to someone that barely qualified the entrance or to someone that got a better rank? That's all my point is all about. My forefathers are probably guilty of all the crimes they are accused of, and I feel bad, but I am not ready to pay for their crimes If you want me to, well, shove it my friend.
Firstly. I agree with you about the physical abilities of a fighter pilot. Its a direct corelation if you cant see you will endanger yourself, your country and your machine.
To simply answer your question. I wouldnot hire someone who is "physically unfit" for the job of a fighter pilot. "Physical fitness" as a criteria determined scientifically and is unchallenged. No one can dispute the fact that someone who is blind cannot fly a plane or drive a car. These criteria are physical criteria determined by the nature of things. These donot pertain to one's perceived mental and intellectual abilities. How those abilities are measured and judge is very conterversial. Its proven in western researches that examinations like CAT, SAT, GMAT have always had a cultural bias slanting towards the elite, upperclass and those with vested interests.
Why is higher marks indicative of better abilities ? I think by our own experiences one cannot conclusively say that a 99% biology student is vastly superior to one who has scored 93%. Its just an examination mark and I can tell you in my school in class 12 (year 1992, CBSE) there were 45 people who scored a 99 in physics. 30 who scored a 99 in chemistry. Examination marks esp in school and university is as bad or as good as a lottery ticket.
This number has come to represent merit. Which is a ton of bullshit. We have seen highly meritorious doctors falsely diagnose health condition, screw up operations etc. Therefore there is no gaurentee persay that a 99 percentile graduate truly is a good doctor. He is at best a good student and I would say he is a good mugpot.He maybe a good doctor or he may not be. Very similar to someone who became a doctor with 80%.
Healers have existed in this country who have not necessarily come from the western medicine setup. To be cured by a doctor, you need to have faith in him and faith is a abstract term. I may still have faith in a doctor who happens to be from the dalit sc/st quota. Lets openly give information about a doctor and let patients decide who they have to go to.
For the poor and oppressed the biggest issue is having a doctor who can treat them affordably. The govt has failed to provide them with affordable treatment. Their own employees dont believe in healing but striking work, violating court orders and sitting in protests.
Though I do sympathise with the medicos for the lathi charge. I dont understand why they had to violate the mumbai high court order against marching towards the raj bhavan in mumbai ? Why cant they protest after getting appropriate permissions ?
Merit as in examination marks is therefore just another evaluation critieria and hence need not be deifyed and worshipped like its the sacred cow. We need to critically examine and question what is it that we call as merit ? and if itall the marks we score really indicate how good we are ?
In this regard, I consider caste as another such criteria. The same as marks. Adding another criteria to change the ground realities of the society is what government should do. At the end of the day its no competition or race. Its a right.
To say that because someone is from OBC quota or someone is a 70% automatically makes him a bad doctor is not just wrong, but narrow minded.
Well in any case I still ask the question why should the government care for merit when those who study on public funds dont believe in serving their funders (In reference to the thousands who flock to UK every year after studying in govt colleges)? Ya I know currency repatriation. Tch tch tch. Without these saviours of the mation, India would never be able to become a great nation.
For those who claim that dalits have never benifited from reservation (bogus caste certificates), let me tell you that in medical colleges as in univesities the whole business of chasing papers, paying bribes to get better marks is a common practice. Lets talk about that too.
To label my arguments as rhetoric falling prey to compartmentalised thinking. You look at arguments and label them as it suits you, communist, capitalist. It surprises you how can one be a communist at one point and capitalist at another. You think that its a case of double standards. But all that you had to do was stop using labels. I dont claim to belong to any of those labels you use. I dont believe in any of the "isms".
My opinion on any issue is based only on those issue and not on some ideological slant. However much you might want to think thats the case.
go ahead and tell me I am mad.. :)
vasu
"examinations like CAT, SAT, GMAT have always had a cultural bias slanting towards the elite, upperclass and those with vested interests" Where did you get that from Vasu? I like your fertile imagination. Only, I wish you could use it elsewhere.
And do you actually believe that an Indian is either from the OBC or a RDB kid with 2 cars? Wake up man!!!
~Sheetal.
I am glad you asked that question. Sufficient work has gone on the cultural biases of SAT exams and attempts and porposals have been made to correct the cultural bias in the US.
The work of psychologists in the US is well documeted. A whole new R-Sat format was made making sure that the exam isnt biased towards those from the minority african american and hispanic population.
Remember this is a case of an exam showing bias against its ethnic minorities. In India the situation is reverse. The exams show a bias against the majority of the socially oppressed population.
I am sure the examiners in CBSE, ICSE and other boards have no clue what these biases are about. Afterall how would they, when they themselves are from an upper caste and totally closed to lower caste experiences.
To give a simple example of how these subtle biases are incorporated into any paper is in subjects like mathematics.
esp. in math manipulatives or situations surrounding a particular mathematical problem. The situation and the problem itself are two different things. The situation lays the canvas upon which the problem is expected to be solved. e.g. "Imagine two trains travelling towards each other".. The situation explained is a math manipulative and the real problem may be in differential equations or relative velocity.
Such manipulatives are designed by uppercaste upperclass people who have no inkling of the context from which a lower caste would come from. Especially in a heterogeneous environment like India...
Some of what I said may sound trivial, but thats what is the essense of cultural bias.
I think such cultural biases have long existed in our educational system and we have learned to conviniently ignore them.
The examinations we give are suited not to test knowledge, aptitude or skills. Its designed to suit memory.
Hence its a ton of BS that someone who scores a 90 in class 10 is better suited for an educational stream than someone who scored a 80.. Maybe the guy who scored an 80 is the son of a maestri who knows practically how to build and the other kid has never touched cement in his entire life.
How then can you decide based on marks and marks alone that the 90 percentile guy deserves that lone civil engg. seat. ?
Afterall isnt that why civil engg.. is the least saught after field, and students never even dreamed of becoming one in the first place.
This is the thing that needs to be overhauled and untill it is overhauled I refuse to belive the examination system is a sign of merit.
prove me wrong.
vasu
amid so much of nonsense, a cogent voice of reason: http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/14/imagine-no-reservations/
the problem:
with all the injustice and age-old systems & age-old people in governance, our country will prosper backwards and not forward.
the present day corrupt politicians, will stoop down to any level, for their selfish means, and its time they are shown the door and brought to the doors of justice.
the solution:
student community (irrespective of caste or creed) � join together, form a new political party, and take on these bunch of jokers in election, throw them out of system and take over the system, you would all really do our country good and proud. or else these corrupt politicians would happily sell our motherland.
this political formation, would induce new wave in the country, all walks of students would join and support the cause. and the present day corrupt and selfish politicians would be just swept away.
justify the backwardness, as social backwardness, and not communal, like our politicians would want.
entire student community throughout the country would canvass for votes, and they will be given a chance for sure, as people never had much option all these days. this student political system would be voted massively cause people are really fed up of this current day politics and politicians. it would be clean sweep of election votes.
like political parties, student communities don�t have to form a base everywhere for their electioneering, as student community forms part of every village town and city in the country. the base is readymade available, just to pick. start and make the moment.
recently french students, made their government bow down, and so the monarchy was shaken in nepal. more than enough to motivate.
and once this system formed, even if the present day government bends or retracts, don�t accept, see that they are thrown out of the system.
with a vast majority, which is likely to happen, the entire constitution can be altered to suit the present and the future.
this is far better than begging for justice or fasting in front of these jokers, who know actually neither know nor understand anything other than building wealth.
remember � these bunch of jokers have one last option � to divide the student community, let it not happen and that�s it, they are doomed for sure. unite and be united.
actually the moment has started, improve it, add objectives, and form a political movement out of this, the time and situation is already on. unite now and march forward � the time is right. the time is ripe. best wishes.
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